I remember when the "Tesla source code" leaked and I was a decent programmer, so I was curious and looked through some of the posted code... I have never sat in a moving Tesla vehicle since that day. Even if that code never drove a mile, the fact someone writing code for them saved it somewhere as progress scared me.
I remember an old twitter thread that purported to be stories from a programmer just out of their NDA, lots of juicy tidbits about just SSHing into cars to fix bugs.
Horrifying - wow. The amount of photos I've seen purported as leaks from Tesla getting camera access or access to saved images makes it easy for me to believe.
I seem to remember one of the leaked images was rumored to be from Elon's own garage showing an odd item he owned at the time.
It's one thing to have a backdoor so your engineer can unfreeze someone's phone or fix their smart lights. These are motor vehicles carrying people inside of them on highways.
>I remember when the "Tesla source code" leaked and I was a decent programmer, so I was curious and looked through some of the posted code... I have never sat in a moving Tesla vehicle since that day. Even if that code never drove a mile, the fact someone writing code for them saved it somewhere as progress scared me.
Have you looked at other car manufacturers' source code? AFAIK Toyota's source code got scrutinized as a result of the unintended acceleration lawsuits, and it was also criticized for sloppy coding.
probably the same can be said for any car company, any tech company, any company of sufficient size and most small companies too. looking at you Boeing!
It's interesting that the recent AI 171 crash may be software related. At least if looks so far that both engines were shut down at the same time which happened once before on a 787 due to the "Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation" system. Time will tell.
What other examples could we look at? Boeing seems like low hanging fruit but as I try to think of other examples it is hard.
I can't think of another transport/medical/safety related software leak that left the same kind of impression on me. I was somewhat considering a Tesla back then, but the source code stopped me from that idea.
Thank you for correcting this, I've edited it in an obvious way so I don't misinform. There's enough of that on Tesla already.
I recall Tesla having vehicles in their testing with Lidar and had no idea they never shipped it.
My 2015 towing VW has two radar sensors on the front for adaptive cruise and 5 cameras for lanekeeping. The cameras constantly come on and offline depending on visibility, cleanliness, and even weather. The radars have never once misperformed.
I can't imagine even trusting automatic cruise control to "vision only", much less what they are calling self-driving features.
Having driven plenty of cars with adaptive cruise using only one front radar, I can't really even suggest that - false positives are likely to happen to any driver that racks up mileage when the brakes can be fully applied based on single forward radar sensor covered in bug guts.
Putting aside Musk hate, Cybertruck is just not a good car.
When conceived initially, it had some pretty interesting ideas. The thought process was probably like:
Hmm... What if we use stainless steel instead of regular steel and avoid all the expenses of the paint shop? But then we need to use thicker panels because stainless steel is not great mechanically. So let's double down on thickness and make the panels a load-bearing "exoskeleton", this will also help us to avoid the weight penalty of the frame! But we can't stamp panels that are this thick, we just don't have big enough presses. So let's try to do this "flat" design.
But they failed to achieve that. And now they have a regular boring body-on-the-frame car, with thick panels just adding useless weight and cutting down the battery range. And then there's this steer-by-wire gimmick because Elon really wanted the yoke to happen.
The only remaining true improvement is the 48V power-over-Ethernet architecture.
It's just a bundle of bad decisions and unfortunate compromises.
The uniwiper. The wheel-supporting bolts made for a much lighter vehicle. The glued on cantrails. The glue-installed light bar. The snow-collecting headlight shelf. The frequently jamming tonneau cover. The panel gaps. The sharp edges. The gear selector that likes to fall down from the ceiling. The weird discolorations and scuff marks the bed often has on delivery. The shitty cupholders.
People paid $100k for this. It's criminally bad at that price.
I agree with everything you've written. The required engineering was just too ambitious.
I ordered one on announcement day (11/21/2019). Yeah, I thought it was ugly, but the main selling point for me was its promised ability to go 500 miles on a single charge. (Apparently Musk has a habit of making promises he cannot keep.)
I really wanted that 500 mile range. My two homes are 300 miles apart, and I don't want to waste my time at a charging station while traveling between them. I also liked the idea of using the truck as a power-wall for my (4kW) solar plant.
I cancelled my order and got my $100 back (after inflation ate about 20% of it).
The Lucid Air (GT) offers similar range (512 miles), but it's not a truck, which I also really wanted. (I have enough cars already.) Also, the price of the Lucid Air was more than double that of the promised CT price. In the end, the CT price went up and the Lucid Air price went down, so they're now within about 10% of each other.
Musk's problem is that his army of sycophants who whooped and cheered the unveiling of the Cybertruck don't have any money. They're jobless teenage boys with no hope of ever earning enough to buy the thing.
It's been pretty easy to hate him since that whole bit with the kids stuck in a cave and him calling the hero "pedo guy".
Then there's the long list of lies, like the predictions around self driving [0] and going to Mars [1].
And then you get to his decision to enter the political realm, take a chainsaw to government agencies without care or reason as to how they operate or what they actually do, and use his influence to self-deal.
He's a corrupt asshole. If he did these same things under a different party affiliation, he'd still be a corrupt asshole.
Sort of. I think more specifically he is pushing candidates and actions that directly attack groups of people and using his wealth to do so. So why continue to fund someone who is using that money to attack you?
If he wanted fiscal stability, he would have been lobbying Congress rather than incurring massive costs for the government. DOGE’s reckless violations of law and policy have guaranteed many large lawsuits, sloppy staff cuts regardless of merit have decreased efficiency across the board, and cuts to things like the IRS reduce revenue. This is the opposite of a serious effort to improve efficiency, in large part because they started from the belief that there was a massive fraud and waste problem based on ideology rather than sober analysis.
A lot of Americans think there were better ways to save money than to kill millions of people, turn the American flag into a global symbol of inhumanity and betrayal, hobble critical services, make government an even less appealing place for competent people to work, and then balloon the deficit anyway.
What did the Wisconsin supreme court election have to do with the government budget?
Musk's political action committee used a nearly identical tactic before the presidential election last year, offering to pay $1 million a day to voters in Wisconsin and six other battleground states who signed a petition supporting the First and Second Amendments.
I don't have a problem with wanting the government to be fiscally responsible. I don't even have a problem with thoroughly auditing exactly what the government is spending money on.
I have a problem with the way DOGE went about it. Several problems, in fact. "Move fast and break things" is perhaps a reasonable startup strategy. It's entertaining with rockets. But when what's being broken is not just the government but the rule of law, I am no longer entertained.
He also supported the AfD in Germany; he also offered a million dollars to people before the election in a way that looked like a bribe even if it technically wasn't.
Also Musk's actions in support of Trump may have hastened the failure of the US government, because Trump is purging disagreement rather than incompetence, also the operation of DOGE was classic Muntzing strategy of remove everything and only put it back when something breaks which resulted in at least e.g. people involved with maintaining the USA's nuclear deterrant needing to be un-fired.
> It seems he just wanted to try and get the government financially healthy again.
Demonstrable bullshit, given his actual actions. Doge was an idiotic waste of time that saved next to nothing, and cost the government significantly more via the IRS cuts. Come on, now.
For me it was that time he paid a quarter million dollars to have a woman shut up about being offered a horse in exchange for sex while exposing himself
Remember too that this is when he had to make a hard turn towards the American right wing, since it's a well-known safe haven for the morally bankrupt, so long as you say the magic incantations about DEI and wokeism being evil etc.
He tried to frontrun the sexual harassment allegations by framing it as a red vs blue issue, making his own sexual impropriety somehow everyone else's political problem.
Just to make explicit how transparent this was, since apparently some HN'ers were taken in by the plainest con ever.
20 years of vague left-alignment just happened to be reversed within hours of being notified of an article about sexual misconduct. Remarkable coincidence!
From 2002 until 2022: Elon Musk is largely apolitical, vaguely left-aligned, having donated to Hillary's campaign and claiming to have voted for her, but donated to Tesla/SpaceX/tech-friendly politicians across the spectrum
May 18 2022 @ 9am ET: Elon Musk is contacted by Business Insider to comment about their story on sexual harassment + coverup allegations against him at SpaceX [0]
May 18 2022 @ 12:22pm ET: Elon Musk tweets "Political attacks on me will escalate dramatically in coming months" [1]
May 18 2022 @ 2:44pm ET: Elon Musk tweets "But they have become the party of division & hate, so I can no longer support them and will vote Republican. Now, watch their dirty tricks campaign against me unfold." [2]
May 19 2022 @ 6:17pm ET: Business Insider "A SpaceX flight attendant said Elon Musk exposed himself and propositioned her for sex, documents show. The company paid $250,000 for her silence." [3]
Why in the world would I buy an electric car from the guy who spent more money than I'll ever make in my life to fund the candidate most vocal about killing off electric cars? If Ben and Jerry started stumping for a candidate trying to ban ice cream I also wouldn't buy Ben & Jerry's. Seems like common sense to me.
You don't understand polarized political tension/fighting? What kind of answer are you expecting? Yes, people with polarized political beliefs don't like each other. is this something you learned today?
The Hitler salutes and the endorsement of Trump were the final straws. The scuba diver thing and the incessant false promises laid the groundwork. He’s left the tribe of reasonable people. So yes, not in my tribe. He’s funded some cool work, but that only buys so much goodwill.
He could easily have deflated the controversy if he apologized and explained that it was unintentional and that he denounces the Nazi party. Instead he gave a speech to the AFD (the modern German Nazi party) about how white people shouldn't have to feel ashamed of their history like a week later. As far as I know, he has never directly apologized or tried to explain the gesture.
> He could easily have deflated the controversy if he apologized
That's all you guys want. Apologies. Apologies for something one believes didn't do.
Would you apologize if I thought you were racist? You're not racist, right? So apologize for me thinking you are. Also explain to me how you're not racist.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I think the guy's a tool.
Salute because he wants to (and it riles up his fanbase), immediately deny it because he wants to, and because it riles up his fanbase again, because nothing says "I am the man of power" like being able to deny what everybody's seen with their own eyes, and gloat at people shaking in rage.
Things start to make a lot of sense w.r.t. Musk and Trump when you view them as bullies, and their supporters as wannabe bullies, and they're cheering for the greatest bullies they've ever seen in their lives.
After this he immediately spoke at a campaign event for a far right German group
> On Saturday, Musk spoke repeatedly about the importance of Germans taking pride in their heritage.
> "It's good to be proud of German culture and German values, and not to lose that in some sort of multiculturalism that dilutes everything," Musk said.
> Then, in an apparent reference to the Nazi era, Musk added that there is "frankly too much of a focus on past guilt and we need to move beyond that."
They do say that those who forget the past will never repeat it. Ah well!
Sounds about right? Today's Germans shouldn't feel guilty about the atrocities their great grandparents did. If they should, maybe look into your own heritage a bit.
> So who’s left to buy Teslas? Crypto grifters? Joe Rogan stans? That’s not a customer base; it’s a comment section. And Tesla’s sales numbers reflect that.
Yeah, the opposition really wishes the Tesla to go down, while the car itself is becoming quite popular among regular people (now that there is an aftermarket as well - as it's such a new carmaker).
I remember when the "Tesla source code" leaked and I was a decent programmer, so I was curious and looked through some of the posted code... I have never sat in a moving Tesla vehicle since that day. Even if that code never drove a mile, the fact someone writing code for them saved it somewhere as progress scared me.
[Edit to delete references to LIDAR]: Then front radar was disabled/disconnected https://www.carscoops.com/2023/05/tesla-is-disabling-radar-s...
Then he stepped into his problematic political role.
It is hard to imagine any technically competent buyer getting past either of the first two, given they trust the vehicle with their mortal shell.
I remember an old twitter thread that purported to be stories from a programmer just out of their NDA, lots of juicy tidbits about just SSHing into cars to fix bugs.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1032939617404645376
Horrifying - wow. The amount of photos I've seen purported as leaks from Tesla getting camera access or access to saved images makes it easy for me to believe.
I seem to remember one of the leaked images was rumored to be from Elon's own garage showing an odd item he owned at the time.
This is actually extremely common across the tech industry. Backdoors are standard.
It's one thing to have a backdoor so your engineer can unfreeze someone's phone or fix their smart lights. These are motor vehicles carrying people inside of them on highways.
>I remember when the "Tesla source code" leaked and I was a decent programmer, so I was curious and looked through some of the posted code... I have never sat in a moving Tesla vehicle since that day. Even if that code never drove a mile, the fact someone writing code for them saved it somewhere as progress scared me.
Have you looked at other car manufacturers' source code? AFAIK Toyota's source code got scrutinized as a result of the unintended acceleration lawsuits, and it was also criticized for sloppy coding.
edit: https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_...
probably the same can be said for any car company, any tech company, any company of sufficient size and most small companies too. looking at you Boeing!
It's interesting that the recent AI 171 crash may be software related. At least if looks so far that both engines were shut down at the same time which happened once before on a 787 due to the "Thrust Control Malfunction Accommodation" system. Time will tell.
What other examples could we look at? Boeing seems like low hanging fruit but as I try to think of other examples it is hard.
I can't think of another transport/medical/safety related software leak that left the same kind of impression on me. I was somewhat considering a Tesla back then, but the source code stopped me from that idea.
> Then LIDAR was disabled/removed.
Radar, not lidar. Tesla cars never had lidar.
Thank you for correcting this, I've edited it in an obvious way so I don't misinform. There's enough of that on Tesla already.
I recall Tesla having vehicles in their testing with Lidar and had no idea they never shipped it.
My 2015 towing VW has two radar sensors on the front for adaptive cruise and 5 cameras for lanekeeping. The cameras constantly come on and offline depending on visibility, cleanliness, and even weather. The radars have never once misperformed.
I can't imagine even trusting automatic cruise control to "vision only", much less what they are calling self-driving features.
Having driven plenty of cars with adaptive cruise using only one front radar, I can't really even suggest that - false positives are likely to happen to any driver that racks up mileage when the brakes can be fully applied based on single forward radar sensor covered in bug guts.
If it’s so bad - why all of their cars top safety charts?
[flagged]
Why is it flagged? Can we not discuss Tesla anymore because the Nazi salute made everything so divisive?
Putting aside Musk hate, Cybertruck is just not a good car.
When conceived initially, it had some pretty interesting ideas. The thought process was probably like:
Hmm... What if we use stainless steel instead of regular steel and avoid all the expenses of the paint shop? But then we need to use thicker panels because stainless steel is not great mechanically. So let's double down on thickness and make the panels a load-bearing "exoskeleton", this will also help us to avoid the weight penalty of the frame! But we can't stamp panels that are this thick, we just don't have big enough presses. So let's try to do this "flat" design.
But they failed to achieve that. And now they have a regular boring body-on-the-frame car, with thick panels just adding useless weight and cutting down the battery range. And then there's this steer-by-wire gimmick because Elon really wanted the yoke to happen.
The only remaining true improvement is the 48V power-over-Ethernet architecture.
It's just a bundle of bad decisions and unfortunate compromises.
The uniwiper. The wheel-supporting bolts made for a much lighter vehicle. The glued on cantrails. The glue-installed light bar. The snow-collecting headlight shelf. The frequently jamming tonneau cover. The panel gaps. The sharp edges. The gear selector that likes to fall down from the ceiling. The weird discolorations and scuff marks the bed often has on delivery. The shitty cupholders.
People paid $100k for this. It's criminally bad at that price.
I agree with everything you've written. The required engineering was just too ambitious.
I ordered one on announcement day (11/21/2019). Yeah, I thought it was ugly, but the main selling point for me was its promised ability to go 500 miles on a single charge. (Apparently Musk has a habit of making promises he cannot keep.)
I really wanted that 500 mile range. My two homes are 300 miles apart, and I don't want to waste my time at a charging station while traveling between them. I also liked the idea of using the truck as a power-wall for my (4kW) solar plant.
I cancelled my order and got my $100 back (after inflation ate about 20% of it).
The Lucid Air (GT) offers similar range (512 miles), but it's not a truck, which I also really wanted. (I have enough cars already.) Also, the price of the Lucid Air was more than double that of the promised CT price. In the end, the CT price went up and the Lucid Air price went down, so they're now within about 10% of each other.
>My two homes are 300 miles apart
That sounds like a problem solvable by a 3rd home.
[dead]
Musk's problem is that his army of sycophants who whooped and cheered the unveiling of the Cybertruck don't have any money. They're jobless teenage boys with no hope of ever earning enough to buy the thing.
[flagged]
It's been pretty easy to hate him since that whole bit with the kids stuck in a cave and him calling the hero "pedo guy".
Then there's the long list of lies, like the predictions around self driving [0] and going to Mars [1].
And then you get to his decision to enter the political realm, take a chainsaw to government agencies without care or reason as to how they operate or what they actually do, and use his influence to self-deal.
He's a corrupt asshole. If he did these same things under a different party affiliation, he'd still be a corrupt asshole.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autono...
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/dhi6l6/spacex...
Sort of. I think more specifically he is pushing candidates and actions that directly attack groups of people and using his wealth to do so. So why continue to fund someone who is using that money to attack you?
[flagged]
If he wanted fiscal stability, he would have been lobbying Congress rather than incurring massive costs for the government. DOGE’s reckless violations of law and policy have guaranteed many large lawsuits, sloppy staff cuts regardless of merit have decreased efficiency across the board, and cuts to things like the IRS reduce revenue. This is the opposite of a serious effort to improve efficiency, in large part because they started from the belief that there was a massive fraud and waste problem based on ideology rather than sober analysis.
A lot of Americans think there were better ways to save money than to kill millions of people, turn the American flag into a global symbol of inhumanity and betrayal, hobble critical services, make government an even less appealing place for competent people to work, and then balloon the deficit anyway.
Curious, ain't it.
https://time.com/7298994/usaid-deaths-studies-estimates-fore...
The government already had an office of budgetary responsibility and oversight.
His approach was not one of someone who had carefully investigated the situation, found real issues, and was sensibly trying to fix them.
It was an idiot with a chainsaw, chopping wildly at things, so that he could say that he'd made them smaller.
What did the Wisconsin supreme court election have to do with the government budget?
Musk's political action committee used a nearly identical tactic before the presidential election last year, offering to pay $1 million a day to voters in Wisconsin and six other battleground states who signed a petition supporting the First and Second Amendments.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-wisconsin-supreme-cou...
I don't have a problem with wanting the government to be fiscally responsible. I don't even have a problem with thoroughly auditing exactly what the government is spending money on.
I have a problem with the way DOGE went about it. Several problems, in fact. "Move fast and break things" is perhaps a reasonable startup strategy. It's entertaining with rockets. But when what's being broken is not just the government but the rule of law, I am no longer entertained.
"Just" is the error leading to your confusion.
He also supported the AfD in Germany; he also offered a million dollars to people before the election in a way that looked like a bribe even if it technically wasn't.
Also Musk's actions in support of Trump may have hastened the failure of the US government, because Trump is purging disagreement rather than incompetence, also the operation of DOGE was classic Muntzing strategy of remove everything and only put it back when something breaks which resulted in at least e.g. people involved with maintaining the USA's nuclear deterrant needing to be un-fired.
> It seems he just wanted to try and get the government financially healthy again.
Demonstrable bullshit, given his actual actions. Doge was an idiotic waste of time that saved next to nothing, and cost the government significantly more via the IRS cuts. Come on, now.
[dead]
[flagged]
For me it was that time he paid a quarter million dollars to have a woman shut up about being offered a horse in exchange for sex while exposing himself
Remember too that this is when he had to make a hard turn towards the American right wing, since it's a well-known safe haven for the morally bankrupt, so long as you say the magic incantations about DEI and wokeism being evil etc.
He tried to frontrun the sexual harassment allegations by framing it as a red vs blue issue, making his own sexual impropriety somehow everyone else's political problem.
Yes that's right, he immediately came out as republican so he could conveniently say "they're just out to get me!"
Just to make explicit how transparent this was, since apparently some HN'ers were taken in by the plainest con ever.
20 years of vague left-alignment just happened to be reversed within hours of being notified of an article about sexual misconduct. Remarkable coincidence!
From 2002 until 2022: Elon Musk is largely apolitical, vaguely left-aligned, having donated to Hillary's campaign and claiming to have voted for her, but donated to Tesla/SpaceX/tech-friendly politicians across the spectrum
May 18 2022 @ 9am ET: Elon Musk is contacted by Business Insider to comment about their story on sexual harassment + coverup allegations against him at SpaceX [0]
May 18 2022 @ 12:22pm ET: Elon Musk tweets "Political attacks on me will escalate dramatically in coming months" [1]
May 18 2022 @ 2:44pm ET: Elon Musk tweets "But they have become the party of division & hate, so I can no longer support them and will vote Republican. Now, watch their dirty tricks campaign against me unfold." [2]
May 19 2022 @ 6:17pm ET: Business Insider "A SpaceX flight attendant said Elon Musk exposed himself and propositioned her for sex, documents show. The company paid $250,000 for her silence." [3]
[0]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/elon-musk-spacex-1.6460477
[1]: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1526961470562508802
[2]: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1526997132858822658
[3]: https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-paid-250000-to-a-flig...
Why in the world would I buy an electric car from the guy who spent more money than I'll ever make in my life to fund the candidate most vocal about killing off electric cars? If Ben and Jerry started stumping for a candidate trying to ban ice cream I also wouldn't buy Ben & Jerry's. Seems like common sense to me.
What an odd way to form a question. You seem to already be doubting the answer before it’s been sent to you.
You don't understand polarized political tension/fighting? What kind of answer are you expecting? Yes, people with polarized political beliefs don't like each other. is this something you learned today?
The Hitler salutes and the endorsement of Trump were the final straws. The scuba diver thing and the incessant false promises laid the groundwork. He’s left the tribe of reasonable people. So yes, not in my tribe. He’s funded some cool work, but that only buys so much goodwill.
[flagged]
To be explicit about what many commentators are implying: he in fact did not deny it.
Did he actually deny it and denounce the many neo-nazis and actual nazis who clearly saw it for what it was?
When did he deny it? Do you have a source?
He could easily have deflated the controversy if he apologized and explained that it was unintentional and that he denounces the Nazi party. Instead he gave a speech to the AFD (the modern German Nazi party) about how white people shouldn't have to feel ashamed of their history like a week later. As far as I know, he has never directly apologized or tried to explain the gesture.
Took me 5 seconds to find a source
https://youtu.be/AbkboSu2ALk
> He could easily have deflated the controversy if he apologized
That's all you guys want. Apologies. Apologies for something one believes didn't do.
Would you apologize if I thought you were racist? You're not racist, right? So apologize for me thinking you are. Also explain to me how you're not racist.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I think the guy's a tool.
Salute because he wants to (and it riles up his fanbase), immediately deny it because he wants to, and because it riles up his fanbase again, because nothing says "I am the man of power" like being able to deny what everybody's seen with their own eyes, and gloat at people shaking in rage.
Things start to make a lot of sense w.r.t. Musk and Trump when you view them as bullies, and their supporters as wannabe bullies, and they're cheering for the greatest bullies they've ever seen in their lives.
Because he's a troll. He spends all day on Twitter. Trolling is fun, and like Trump, he's mentally ill and mistakes attention for acceptance.
After this he immediately spoke at a campaign event for a far right German group
> On Saturday, Musk spoke repeatedly about the importance of Germans taking pride in their heritage.
> "It's good to be proud of German culture and German values, and not to lose that in some sort of multiculturalism that dilutes everything," Musk said.
> Then, in an apparent reference to the Nazi era, Musk added that there is "frankly too much of a focus on past guilt and we need to move beyond that."
They do say that those who forget the past will never repeat it. Ah well!
https://www.npr.org/2025/01/27/nx-s1-5276084/elon-musk-germa...
Sounds about right? Today's Germans shouldn't feel guilty about the atrocities their great grandparents did. If they should, maybe look into your own heritage a bit.
Guilt has nothing to do with denying the past.
The hate is because Elon is literally a Nazi. And no, Nazi's are not part of my "tribe".
[flagged]
If you're in the US, it is hard to engage with this comment as he has inserted himself directly into the fiercest debates and drama in our country.
If you're outside the US, take your pick of news sources and search his name.
> So who’s left to buy Teslas? Crypto grifters? Joe Rogan stans? That’s not a customer base; it’s a comment section. And Tesla’s sales numbers reflect that.
Scathing!
Yeah, the opposition really wishes the Tesla to go down, while the car itself is becoming quite popular among regular people (now that there is an aftermarket as well - as it's such a new carmaker).